My thoughts on Prop HATE/8
Nov. 9th, 2008 03:33 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
grrgoylI've been toying with the idea of this post ever since hearing the news about Prop 8 passing in California. I've put off writing about it mainly because I know it would be preaching to the converted. I know everyone on my F-list already supports gay marriage, and if you don't and somehow have been faking it up to now, well, don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out, because I'm afraid it simply wouldn't work out between us.
My initial reaction to the news, after disbelief, was of course anger. A simmering, festering rage which pretty closely resembled my general reaction to injustice of any sort. I spent a lot of time on Daily Kos, because I knew I would find many people who agreed with me. There seemed to be a lot of fingers being pointed there, so many to blame: The anemic, inadequate advertising of the anti-Prop 8 people, the complacency of liberal voters who just assumed everything would be fine without their input, worse still people somehow confused by the wording and thinking they were voting "yes" on gay marriage, of course the LDS who started the whole thing, but most disturbingly the African-American voters who evidently approved it to the tune of 70%.
This issue bothered me most of all, that the same people weeping in the streets after overcoming generations of discrimination would turn around and pass that oppression onto another group. Obviously I voted for Obama, not because he's black, but because I felt he was the far superior choice. But thinking about those black voters turning out in record numbers to deny gay people their rights tinged Barack's victory with an ugly shade of bitterness.
Which of course is utterly unfair. It's as absurd to say all blacks are homophobic as it is to say all Republicans are racist. I prefer to see the statistic as a function of religion, in that blacks tend to be bigger church-goers, hence more religiously conservative.
Who I blame most of all now is the stupid Californians who elected to give voters the power to amend their constitution by popular vote. THAT is the stupidest thing I've ever heard (in hindsight). This is why we have elected officials. Kay puts it best in Men in Black: A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals. Yes, yes they are, and they shouldn't be given such direct power, without any checks and balances, over such an important document as a constitution. As someone put it on the Kos, the purpose of a constitution is to protect everyone's rights, especially minorities who don't have the numbers to stand up to the majority in a vote. To allow a majority to deny people's rights in it subverts the entire spirit of the document, an argument I devoutly hope will be heard in many a California courtroom in attempts to reverse this appalling event.
The thing is, I know the war isn't over. As much as these religious hysterics wish the gay community would just give up and disappear forever, it's never going to happen. I know with absolute certainty that one day there will be marriage equality. What I'm not so sure about is whether it will happen in my lifetime. I hope Tery and I aren't finally making vows as shriveled, arthritic but inspirational 100-year-olds, but it's entirely possible. On that day I suppose we'll turn around and vote against people marrying their dogs, which seems to be the next logical step in the twisted minds of these religious types. Bigotry: pass it down.
I just wish, and I'm sure that I'm not alone, that I could sit everyone opposed to gay marriage down in a room, gag them (since that's the only way to get them to shut up) and make them put on their "listening ears," as Judge Judy puts it. In fact, I'd let Judge Judy deliver the lesson.
Lesson #1: IT'S NOT A CHOICE. Or I suppose it is a choice, inasmuch as people choose to act on their homosexual urges, just as others choose to pursue a heterosexual relationship. We can choose our partners intellectually, but it's our hearts and bodies that tell us who we're drawn to.
I never gave homosexuality a single thought until college. I remember having a schoolgirl crush on my preschool teacher (Vivian -- she was beautiful, I think we all did) as well as Leslie, a cute blond I would sit with on the bus every day and quietly adore (I can't begin to guess what she thought of it. We never talked at all, that I remember). Then from about second grade through high school I was all about the boys, 100% (apart from the occasional inappropriate but unrecognized tingling I sometimes got on sleepovers with my best friend Lisa).
Then, freshman year of college, walking to class I passed a girl who gave me a small, shy smile unexpectedly that rocked my world, pardon the cliché. It turned out my boyfriend at the time, Dan, knew her, had gone to high school with her, and introduced us. It wasn't long thereafter that I ditched Dan (he was a psycho anyway) and hooked up with Alice, my first girlfriend. It was thrilling, despite the fact we were both too shy to do more than kiss and hold hands. It wasn't until meeting my sister's roommate, Old Friend Bear, that I fell hard for a girl, but that's a whole other story.
So. I could have chosen to ignore my feelings of excitement when I looked at Alice. I could have kept dating Dan the bipolar nutjob (though I doubt for much longer). Would my life have turned out differently? I might never have met Tery, who I have not the slightest doubt is my soulmate and will be my life partner, legally sanctioned or not. On the other hand, perhaps I would have met someone else who gave me tingles, like Old Friend Bear, and if not her someone else. I might have spent my whole life denying what my heart and body was telling me. Many do. But when happiness, let alone of the lifelong variety, is so hard to find, why would anyone make that choice?
Lesson #2: GAYS HAVE NO INTEREST IN RECRUITING OR MOLESTING YOUR CHILDREN, OR FORCING THEIR BELIEFS ON CHILDREN OR ANYONE. We just want to live our lives and be happy, like anyone. I know it's hard to imagine, people not trying to control other people's lives, but we're out here. If what makes you happy doesn't hurt anyone or anything else, then that's all I care about. Try it sometime.
Lesson #3: MARRIAGE IS NOT THE EXCLUSIVE PROPERTY OF RELIGION. This cannot be repeated enough. Atheists can get married. Non-practicing Christians can get married. Drunk people in Vegas can get married with Elvis presiding. Why aren't religious types getting up in arms about these shenanigans? And if it really were all about the "sanctity of marriage," why aren't they working harder to persecute people getting divorced? And if people get divorced, THEN it falls squarely into the legal realm. What's that all about?
Because all they care about is what goes on in the bedroom and "one man and one woman," which is pretty damn funny when you think these people tolerated and even promoted polygamy at one time in their own history. But social attitudes change, and the church that wants to survive changes with them. Unless we're talking about the Bible, which is really all they do. Which brings me to the next lesson.
Lesson #4: STOP CHERRYPICKING THE BIBLE. We've all heard this argument, even I'm sure the Bible thumpers, but they choose to be willfully ignorant. An endless parade of Bible scholars has proven that the translation "abomination" carried very different connotations than it does today, ones that aren't nearly so grimly condemning, a crucial fact that isn't raised nearly enough. Someone once explained that basically any non-procreative sex was labeled that way back then, when the earth had a population of only 100 or so.
But even putting that aside, they also ignore the long list of other "abominations" in the Bible, such as eating lobster, shellfish, birds and even anything that walks on four feet. And a score of other forbidden activities that seem ridiculous nowadays, like not wearing polyblends or shaving a certain way. THOSE passages aren't meant to be taken literally, clearly, but the ones that suit their argument are.
It's a little like arguing with a ferret. Or a very petulant child.
Lesson #5: JUDGE NOT LEST YE BE JUDGED. These people scream on sidewalks that gays are going to hell. If this is true, then it's our business, and getting hostile about it isn't going to change our minds. However, I prefer to fantasize about fundamentalists dying and standing outside their version of the Pearly Gates, only to be told that there's no place for hateful bigots in Paradise. So sorry.
Lesson #6: BE HONEST, GAY MARRIAGE REALLY DOESN'T DIRECTLY AFFECT ANYONE ELSE'S MARRIAGE. HONESTLY. The minute someone gives me a rational, cogent, true example of how gays (or for that matter, anyone else) getting married affects their own relationship negatively, I'll respectfully concede the argument. Unless a lesbian has stolen the affections of your wife and they get married, that might be something. But then gay marriage would make everyone else work a little harder on their own relationships, and how can that be a bad thing?
I'm out of steam. My solution would be to label marriage as "A binding contract recognized for all legal purposes between two consenting, unrelated adults." Full stop. I didn't even throw love into it, how about that? That simple phrasing eliminates incest, marrying a minor, and bestiality. Can we all be happy with that? Probably not, since it will still allow teh horrible, horrible buttsex, and we all know that's what this really all boils down to. Those religious folks are right pervs, aren't they?
I'll leave you with this Harvey Milk video, which I defy you not to at least tear up at:
My initial reaction to the news, after disbelief, was of course anger. A simmering, festering rage which pretty closely resembled my general reaction to injustice of any sort. I spent a lot of time on Daily Kos, because I knew I would find many people who agreed with me. There seemed to be a lot of fingers being pointed there, so many to blame: The anemic, inadequate advertising of the anti-Prop 8 people, the complacency of liberal voters who just assumed everything would be fine without their input, worse still people somehow confused by the wording and thinking they were voting "yes" on gay marriage, of course the LDS who started the whole thing, but most disturbingly the African-American voters who evidently approved it to the tune of 70%.
This issue bothered me most of all, that the same people weeping in the streets after overcoming generations of discrimination would turn around and pass that oppression onto another group. Obviously I voted for Obama, not because he's black, but because I felt he was the far superior choice. But thinking about those black voters turning out in record numbers to deny gay people their rights tinged Barack's victory with an ugly shade of bitterness.
Which of course is utterly unfair. It's as absurd to say all blacks are homophobic as it is to say all Republicans are racist. I prefer to see the statistic as a function of religion, in that blacks tend to be bigger church-goers, hence more religiously conservative.
Who I blame most of all now is the stupid Californians who elected to give voters the power to amend their constitution by popular vote. THAT is the stupidest thing I've ever heard (in hindsight). This is why we have elected officials. Kay puts it best in Men in Black: A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals. Yes, yes they are, and they shouldn't be given such direct power, without any checks and balances, over such an important document as a constitution. As someone put it on the Kos, the purpose of a constitution is to protect everyone's rights, especially minorities who don't have the numbers to stand up to the majority in a vote. To allow a majority to deny people's rights in it subverts the entire spirit of the document, an argument I devoutly hope will be heard in many a California courtroom in attempts to reverse this appalling event.
The thing is, I know the war isn't over. As much as these religious hysterics wish the gay community would just give up and disappear forever, it's never going to happen. I know with absolute certainty that one day there will be marriage equality. What I'm not so sure about is whether it will happen in my lifetime. I hope Tery and I aren't finally making vows as shriveled, arthritic but inspirational 100-year-olds, but it's entirely possible. On that day I suppose we'll turn around and vote against people marrying their dogs, which seems to be the next logical step in the twisted minds of these religious types. Bigotry: pass it down.
I just wish, and I'm sure that I'm not alone, that I could sit everyone opposed to gay marriage down in a room, gag them (since that's the only way to get them to shut up) and make them put on their "listening ears," as Judge Judy puts it. In fact, I'd let Judge Judy deliver the lesson.
Lesson #1: IT'S NOT A CHOICE. Or I suppose it is a choice, inasmuch as people choose to act on their homosexual urges, just as others choose to pursue a heterosexual relationship. We can choose our partners intellectually, but it's our hearts and bodies that tell us who we're drawn to.
I never gave homosexuality a single thought until college. I remember having a schoolgirl crush on my preschool teacher (Vivian -- she was beautiful, I think we all did) as well as Leslie, a cute blond I would sit with on the bus every day and quietly adore (I can't begin to guess what she thought of it. We never talked at all, that I remember). Then from about second grade through high school I was all about the boys, 100% (apart from the occasional inappropriate but unrecognized tingling I sometimes got on sleepovers with my best friend Lisa).
Then, freshman year of college, walking to class I passed a girl who gave me a small, shy smile unexpectedly that rocked my world, pardon the cliché. It turned out my boyfriend at the time, Dan, knew her, had gone to high school with her, and introduced us. It wasn't long thereafter that I ditched Dan (he was a psycho anyway) and hooked up with Alice, my first girlfriend. It was thrilling, despite the fact we were both too shy to do more than kiss and hold hands. It wasn't until meeting my sister's roommate, Old Friend Bear, that I fell hard for a girl, but that's a whole other story.
So. I could have chosen to ignore my feelings of excitement when I looked at Alice. I could have kept dating Dan the bipolar nutjob (though I doubt for much longer). Would my life have turned out differently? I might never have met Tery, who I have not the slightest doubt is my soulmate and will be my life partner, legally sanctioned or not. On the other hand, perhaps I would have met someone else who gave me tingles, like Old Friend Bear, and if not her someone else. I might have spent my whole life denying what my heart and body was telling me. Many do. But when happiness, let alone of the lifelong variety, is so hard to find, why would anyone make that choice?
Lesson #2: GAYS HAVE NO INTEREST IN RECRUITING OR MOLESTING YOUR CHILDREN, OR FORCING THEIR BELIEFS ON CHILDREN OR ANYONE. We just want to live our lives and be happy, like anyone. I know it's hard to imagine, people not trying to control other people's lives, but we're out here. If what makes you happy doesn't hurt anyone or anything else, then that's all I care about. Try it sometime.
Lesson #3: MARRIAGE IS NOT THE EXCLUSIVE PROPERTY OF RELIGION. This cannot be repeated enough. Atheists can get married. Non-practicing Christians can get married. Drunk people in Vegas can get married with Elvis presiding. Why aren't religious types getting up in arms about these shenanigans? And if it really were all about the "sanctity of marriage," why aren't they working harder to persecute people getting divorced? And if people get divorced, THEN it falls squarely into the legal realm. What's that all about?
Because all they care about is what goes on in the bedroom and "one man and one woman," which is pretty damn funny when you think these people tolerated and even promoted polygamy at one time in their own history. But social attitudes change, and the church that wants to survive changes with them. Unless we're talking about the Bible, which is really all they do. Which brings me to the next lesson.
Lesson #4: STOP CHERRYPICKING THE BIBLE. We've all heard this argument, even I'm sure the Bible thumpers, but they choose to be willfully ignorant. An endless parade of Bible scholars has proven that the translation "abomination" carried very different connotations than it does today, ones that aren't nearly so grimly condemning, a crucial fact that isn't raised nearly enough. Someone once explained that basically any non-procreative sex was labeled that way back then, when the earth had a population of only 100 or so.
But even putting that aside, they also ignore the long list of other "abominations" in the Bible, such as eating lobster, shellfish, birds and even anything that walks on four feet. And a score of other forbidden activities that seem ridiculous nowadays, like not wearing polyblends or shaving a certain way. THOSE passages aren't meant to be taken literally, clearly, but the ones that suit their argument are.
It's a little like arguing with a ferret. Or a very petulant child.
Lesson #5: JUDGE NOT LEST YE BE JUDGED. These people scream on sidewalks that gays are going to hell. If this is true, then it's our business, and getting hostile about it isn't going to change our minds. However, I prefer to fantasize about fundamentalists dying and standing outside their version of the Pearly Gates, only to be told that there's no place for hateful bigots in Paradise. So sorry.
Lesson #6: BE HONEST, GAY MARRIAGE REALLY DOESN'T DIRECTLY AFFECT ANYONE ELSE'S MARRIAGE. HONESTLY. The minute someone gives me a rational, cogent, true example of how gays (or for that matter, anyone else) getting married affects their own relationship negatively, I'll respectfully concede the argument. Unless a lesbian has stolen the affections of your wife and they get married, that might be something. But then gay marriage would make everyone else work a little harder on their own relationships, and how can that be a bad thing?
I'm out of steam. My solution would be to label marriage as "A binding contract recognized for all legal purposes between two consenting, unrelated adults." Full stop. I didn't even throw love into it, how about that? That simple phrasing eliminates incest, marrying a minor, and bestiality. Can we all be happy with that? Probably not, since it will still allow teh horrible, horrible buttsex, and we all know that's what this really all boils down to. Those religious folks are right pervs, aren't they?
I'll leave you with this Harvey Milk video, which I defy you not to at least tear up at:
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no subject
Date: 2008-11-09 11:02 pm (UTC)I tend to use facebook more now that I have my IRL friends, work buddies and many Ljers pooled there, and I wrote something there that I think I will post on LJ for you.
I am 100000000% on your side.
The only thing that encourages me is that in 2000, prop 22 passed with a shockingly high percentage. This time, while we didn't defeat it in the landslide that seemed so within our reach, the numbers were much improved. There's been a mobility of millions in these last 8 years.
The next time it's up for voting, we'll make it happen.
Even though I live in Califonria, it's easy for me to forget that California is not solidly urban or adequately educated (our schools are not well ranked). There's large, overwhelming sprawls of agricultural, rural areas. And, there's a lot of immigrant groups who either vote with their religion (Latin Americans) or vote Republican because they are legitimately afraid of communism (mainly Asian groups) and consider Republicans the party of McCarthism which they LIKED (wish I was joking here).
no subject
Date: 2008-11-09 11:09 pm (UTC)I knew you'd respond to this post, having firsthand knowledge of CA politics. Even though I know all my friends side with me, I'd still like to hear their thoughts.
It is really easy to forget what a diverse population CA has, being so large. With Hollywood and San Francisco, it's easy to assume it's liberal and progressive. I think that's part of why Prop 8's success was so unexpected.
I haven't heard any concrete news about what's being done, if anything, to fight it. I think the first order of business should be reversing the popular vote constitution thing, or else it will just go back and forth endlessly.
no subject
Date: 2008-11-09 11:53 pm (UTC)On Thursday, massive rallies across the city that it added 1 hour to my commute - it shut down freeways. It was still picking up speed at 2 am on Thursday, with thousands of people filling the streets.
There's been HUGE daily protests in front of Mormon temples in the big cities (LA and San Fran). Violent too. A couple of religious fuckbags (the majority so far have been minorities) have punched and attacked people. One guy assaulted a woman right on camera.
The fight started immediately. :)
no subject
Date: 2008-11-10 12:11 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-11-10 12:20 am (UTC)And I say yes, bring in Judge Judy!
no subject
Date: 2008-11-10 03:45 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-11-10 01:33 am (UTC)Whats with all this hate, what about all the white people that voted on this. All these people up in arms, when was the last time you went to a pro marriage rally or march.
There are marches for equal marriage every year in US and those numbers drop every year. Pro equal marriage groups numbers are dropping. Very few donation go to these organization (at least the one i work with).
If you want to blame the people of color first tell me what was done to educated the people of color on these issues. How many no on prop 8 adds where in spanish. How many no on prop 8 ads had people of color in them. I can only find one and that person was a movie star.
Then look at the yes on prop 8 ads and info, they made the effort to put people of all colors in there ads they translated there message to the masses.
still the number of whites that voted yes on the issues is higher than those of color.
no subject
Date: 2008-11-10 03:44 am (UTC)Undoubtedly there were higher numbers of white people. But percentage-wise, 70 is a pretty high number for a demographic that is all too familiar with how it feels to be a hated minority.
I think even releasing that information was a divisive tactic, and sadly it worked. There are lots of really angry people right now who are looking for anyone to blame. I'm not one of them, because I recognize the sample in question isn't representative of an entire race of people, but yes, for a day I let it get to me. I'm over it.
no subject
Date: 2008-11-10 04:38 am (UTC)But i do feel that this is a very important and it should open peoples eyes to the fact that if we want to get our rights as LGBT people we need to stop preaching to our self and start educating all people on this issue. Very little effort seems to be made in reaching people who are not white middle class.
I was once viewing an ad that was made by a company that was making rings for LGBT people, they ask our group to view it before it was posted and used at expos. when it was over i ask "why where all the people in ad white", there first answer was well that the demo we expect to by from us. In the end they did add a person of color but you get what i'm saying.
no subject
Date: 2008-11-10 04:42 am (UTC)they will come here an do the same thing and we can't make the same mistake, they will cherry pick the bible to make there case and they will use the church going people to win there cause.
no subject
Date: 2008-11-10 04:43 am (UTC)te heee
no subject
Date: 2008-11-10 04:47 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-11-10 04:44 am (UTC)I get that we have to educate them, but I also don't think you'll change anyone's mind with a commercial. I think it can only come from personal exposure, i.e., knowing someone LGBT. For instance, Ryan's boyfriend John is Mexican and the most aggressively "out" person I've ever met. He was the first Latino I'd ever met too, and I know their culture is extremely homophobic. We need about 1000 more guys like him!
no subject
Date: 2008-11-10 04:55 am (UTC)But this comes back to the power of being "out" they need to see we are just people who love.
no subject
Date: 2008-11-13 02:43 am (UTC)How many no on prop 8 ads had people of color in them. Um, people of color aren't stupid. Do you really think all of those people voted "YES" on Prop. 8 because they saw a "Vote NO on Prop. 8" commercial with no people of color in it and thought, that can't possibly be aimed towards me! I should vote the other way.
no subject
Date: 2008-11-10 03:03 am (UTC)I kind of agree with the people who said the No on 8 campaign wasn't strong enough. I live in one of the only counties where the majority was No, yet I saw at least 4 times the number of Yes on 8 signs plastered all over the place, and heard about many more Yes rallies than No rallies. I also don't think the ads went nearly far enough until about 3 days before the election. I remember seeing some ads that were better near the very end, but it came a bit too late. I even signed up for a No on 8 newsletter, but I don't think I ever got any emails. Might've been an error, though.
I'm also upset about Florida, cause I know a few people who live there, and I'm just glad our ban didn't go nearly as far. Getting rid of all marriage equivalencies?? What kind of fucking country do we live in!
no subject
Date: 2008-11-10 04:00 am (UTC)I'm sure there were many factors that contributed. I'm surprised people aren't angrier at Utah residents coming in and changing their constitution, regardless of the issue.
Florida's deal was pretty shameful too, but CA's ruling will set a major precedent for other states, I've heard. I noticed in Arizona (gah! I mean Arkansas) they banned all unmarried couples from adopting, not just gay, which shows a small effort to be fair (even if I don't agree with it. It seems to me married people can get divorced, so if the argument is a stable home environment, marriage doesn't guarantee anything).
As much as some black people dislike the comparison, the struggle for gay rights can be likened to their struggle for civil rights. That wasn't won overnight either. I have faith.
no subject
Date: 2008-11-10 04:13 am (UTC)No on 8 drew some comparisons to the civil rights movement, which I think is fair game considering the fact that Yes on 8 was appeared to be targeting some of their ads to minorities, trying to bank on the idea that ethnic minorities tend to have strong feelings about "traditional marriage" (which seems to have worked to their advantage after all).
In one of my classes, we had a discussion (pretty much just a bunch of college students agreeing that Prop 8 is ridiculous) after the election, and one black student remarked that even though his parents didn't really approve of homosexuality, they saw the blatant parallel between this battle and the civil rights movement, and could not in good conscience vote to remove the rights of other people.
If only more people could see it that way. Sigh.
no subject
Date: 2008-11-10 04:18 am (UTC)I've heard they don't like the comparison because of homosexuality being a "choice," unlike ethnicity. But I'm sure there are more stories like that one, of people being ruled by conscience and not such fine lines.
no subject
Date: 2008-11-10 04:49 am (UTC)What modern society calls marriage stems from contracts of inheritance and property that was first put in place in 1561. Before 1566 religious unions did not even have to be officiated to be a union. because of this there was the dual requirements of state registration and church consecration to constitute marriage.
Marriage has always been a law thing, i wish they would get the godmits off it.
no subject
Date: 2008-11-10 11:12 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-11-10 02:47 pm (UTC)It was just text and said something along the lines of
THE GAY AGENDA:
1. Pick the kids up from school
2. Gain equal rights
3. Buy milk
I don't know if I got all of them right, but you get the general idea.
Also, I agree with this post.
no subject
Date: 2008-11-13 02:47 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-11-12 03:18 am (UTC)considering stealing this post and putting it on my own site. I gay love you! xoxo
You know how I hate teh gays.
Date: 2008-11-13 02:49 am (UTC)Re: You know how I hate teh gays.
Date: 2008-11-16 03:00 am (UTC)